With reference to John Roberts post regarding Birding Apps that was mentioned on the Early arrivals from Africa thread.

John ... the BirdGuides app is definitely there on the Apple store, I think you need some level of subscription to BirdGuides info service to use all the functions though.

Collins Bird Guide with the Arctic Tern logo is a cracking app with all the info, maps, and recordings of the song and calls for most of the birds. Its basically the book on your phone, good if youve not got youre book with you.
I think I paid £12 few years back, I think its £14.99 now.
Remember though, it is only a guide. Birds in the field dont always look like they do in a book!

Lastly Aves Vox for all your bird songs and calls is another great app, and its free.

I must say though, no matter how good apps are, theres no substitute for watching birds and gaining from a wealth of knowledge from experienced birders on this forum.

Hi Craig

The app uses 'deep learning' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning techniques (see e.g. https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/2041-210X.13075) which means that it is pretty 'black box' for us to understand exactly what the computer is homing in on - this could include essentially measurements, angles and subtle plumage tones that we would find imperceptible. There is also the risk that the computer could be using info from the background too.... I have played around with feeding it images where certain key parts are excluded which does affect its success, suggesting in this case that wing formula is probably key...

best

Alex

Just out of curiosity I ran Merlin http://merlin.allaboutbirds.org/ on the first available images of the Blyth's Reed Warbler https://twitter.com/BoltonBirder/status/1087468214488059906 of these 4 the app successful identified BRW as its first choice for the pics where the whole bird is visible and suggested Eurasian Reed first for the 'face' only and Japanese Bush Warbler for the rear only. As a piece of in-the-field kit for an instant second opinion on a BOC image then i think that makes it a pretty useful (free) tool. Merlin might not be correct, but it it is disagreeing with you then it is probably worth asking why. It now does 3K species globally, I was a co-author on a new pack for SE Brazil last year.

Hi all

Good to see this discussion on here [full disclosure, I wrote quite a few of the species text for Merlin Europe] it seems to mirror what I have seen elsewhere, some people hate it, some love it but most are at least impressed.

So a few thoughts.

1) it isn't for everyone, if you don't like it, don't use it, but apps like this (e.g. also iNaturalist) - as others have suggested - are likely a key tool for motivating the millions of people out there to look at biodiversity who would otherwise never buy a field guide or interact with wild nature unless we make it as easy as possible. Its a challenge that is waiting to be fulfilled - see my comments on the Pokemon craze here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/07/13/what-wildlife-scientists-and-nature-lovers-can-learn-from-pokemon-go/?utm_term=.8209b8b2997c

2) I don't see why this will be the end of birding, any more than Nancy's Cafe closing was, birding is stronger than it ever has been, you just need to spend 5 minutes at the Birdfair to appreciate that. Tech will change our relationship to the environment, I nearly gave up taking field notes a few years back, partially because doing that was also 'work' and a chore, now thanks to eBird I make an effort to collect data whenever I'm outside, as its ultra easy and knowing that this data is put to good use by myself and others, even if it is visits to tiny urban micro-patches. Its my hope that as the BTO and Cornell are drawn closer together, as has been long promised then creating demand for people recording quantitative data will mean that more people do make the effort not just to go twitching or take images but to count and observe common species.

This from Sullivan et al. (2014)

To this end, a new initiative is underway called Tringa (named after a genus of shorebird that occurs worldwide), intended to leverage the data collecting and outreach capabilities of organizations around the world by making all existing data available within a common data framework. The concept is currently being tested through collaboration between Cornell Lab of Ornithology with its eBird project, and the British Trust for Ornithology who runs a comparable project in the United Kingdom called BirdTrack (blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/main/data-home.jsp). Our hope is that as Tringa evolves, more partners will join from around the world, expanding the coverage of the shared database.

3) Although Merlin may be 'aimed at beginners' we are finding that it is scarily good at doing species that even the gurus struggle with, like Common vs Wilson's Snipe, without seeing features like the tail. This has the potential to revolutionize our knowledge of cryptic species with obvious conservation payoffs.  

4) Tim - is it still identifying random non-birds as birds - it shouldn't offer up suggestions like that now - hence the Blue Rock Thrush, no suggestions. The art gallery is a Rock Dove probably because Merlin was using information in the image - stonework & even droppings which it would recognize in the background of many pics of Feral Pigeons.....

5) Remember its free, as is eBird, as is Birdtrack etc. There are lots of people selling you stuff out there that is not half as good as these ID help apps and mechanisms to store and support your bird data. I was on the Cornell stand at the fair (before moving to Manchester, I worked at the Lab of Ornithology for a year and we continue to work together on the research front) and the level of disbelief that we were giving this away for nothing was pretty constant.

cheers

 

Alex

Tim Wilcox wrote:

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However you CAN have hours of fun using it to suggest species for your friends or their pets or even buildings (it never says 'this is not a bird'). My mate's black spaniel was a Leach's Storm Petrel; I'm a Lesser Grey Shrike (wearing a bright blue polo shirt at The Open) and Walsall Museum and Art Gallery is a Rock Dove.

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 Wow, armchair tick of Lesser Grey Shrike for me then, cos I 've seen you out and about a few times.

 

Ian McKerchar wrote:

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Feel free to dispute Shannon , everyone has their own opinion and that's what makes our hobby (and life in general) so colourful, plus discussions like this make for interesting and though provoking reading.

Are there fewer people actually out there actively looking and enjoying birds purely for their sheer beauty and interest? Yes, I believe so and that's backed up by my own (extensive) personal observations and discussions with other birders. There are far fewer active birders out there than you may think, much less than there used to be and even less seem interested in submitting their observations for the benefit of the birds and their habitats or of getting involved with seemingly kudos-less activities such as surveys and conservation work.

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Obviously I shall take your word for that, and if fewer people are logging sightings, then that's genuinely a bit of a worry.

I still have hope that there'll always be a place for the type of birding you describe, though, and that there'll still be people with their notebooks (or their digital equivalents!) bulging at the end of the day, even if it's a smaller number than in the past.

Ian McKerchar wrote:

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I certainly don't disagree with what you're saying Shannon, but my wording was particular in birding as 'we' know it; old farts like myself and a much lesser (if at all) farts like John 

Its is a fact though (and trust me I study this far more than I ought to!) that many birdwatchers actually watch birds less in the field nowadays and more through viewfinders and on screens of one kind or another and that's perfectly fine if that's what they want to do but it's certainly not 'birding' in the true sense and I believe they have other names for it now 'photo birders' or something (article on it in this month's British Birds)!?

Yeah, no argument from me there, and obviously wildlife photography and the like has become hugely popular, but do you think that that means that fewer people are actually doing what you describe below (taking the actual effort to learn plumage nuances and jizz variations, etc) because of that, or that as the are more ways to enjoy the outdoors generally, and wildlife specifically now, that more people are coming out, and so we're seeing an increase in different activities?

I caught the birding bug about ten years or so (having been a lifelong wildlife enthusiast), give or take, so obviously I can't speak for what was happening before that time, but from being out and about (especially at large reserves, where you encounter the most people), I'd say that the 'pure' (for want of a better word!) birding of the type you describe still seems popular, amongst birders of all ages too, and that plenty of people are still out with their bins and scopes pouring over a Collins or similar alongside all the photographers and more casual observers.

So I'm not disputing anything you say, so much as maybe being a bit more hopeful that there are still plenty of people who're just so passionate about wildlife in general and birds in particular, where the most important factor for them, alongside personal enjoyment, is identification, understanding and learning, and that as the things you described sounded familiar to me, and describe what I like to think that I try and do myself, that I don't think that the onset of technology, increased accessibility, and (perhaps if I'm honest) desire for the most convenience and ease in large in numbers of people, will necessarily 'kill' that; there'll always be people who feel the same, where observation, understanding and logging is more important than a pretty photograph, and who think the most satisfying thing about birding (or wildlife observation in general) is to sit back and just to enjoy and take in what your witnessing. I hope so, anyway.

Ian McKerchar wrote:

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Getting back to the app in question though, I can only marvel at how it works but cannot comprehend how it does it; good luck to those who use it and if it's any good at immature large white-headed gulls I shall bow in complete wonderment 

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Heh, yes, my initial thoughts were marsh and willow tits (can you even separate them conclusively from a photo?), and from a purely personal point of view, it certainly wouldn't be my cup of tea (even if I owned a smart phone!).

Ian McKerchar wrote:

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Birding as 'we' know it John, of enjoying watching and admiring birds in the field (not on a computer screen or 'BOC' after the fact), of going out of our way to understand and appreciate their plumage and jizz variations

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Birding practices, like everything, are changing, but I don't think that the above and the development and use of new technology need necessarily be mutually exclusive; just more tools to aid one's own ability to reach that goal.

Also, apps like this one specifically might be aimed more at the more casual birder / outdoor enthusiast; people who perhaps are curious as to what they may have seen / be looking at, but maybe don't have the time or inclination to learn the many nuances of species ID. In which case, I'd argue it'd be a very good thing if it increases enjoyment for some, or encourages more people to get outdoors and interact with the wild. I'd also argue that anything that makes the hobby more accessible is a good thing.

Don't think there's anything wrong with asking on forums, etc, for an ID either (providing that's the kind of forum it is!). Nobody has to answer, after all, and if you're asking what a coot is, you're clearly not a birder, so there's nothing wrong with asking those who are, especially if they've set up a website for exactly that purpose. Plenty of photos of chaffinches and the like on my Facebook page from people wondering what they've spied ('Are they rare?' is normally the next question; 'no, not as such.').

Saying all of that, I'm surprised anyone could mistake a heron for a gull! I thought everybody knew what a 'sea'gull looks like? Or roughly, anyway. Almost as good as the young lad I overhead once who looked at a herd of deer at a wildlife park, turned to his father and pronounced, 'lions!'

Birding as 'we' know it John, of enjoying watching and admiring birds in the field (not on a computer screen or 'BOC' after the fact), of going out of our way to understand and appreciate their plumage and jizz variations (not relying on an app or waiting for anonymous internet folk to identify them for us with no intention of educating or improving knowledge) and of contributing to the understanding of their status, conservation and protection by utilising our sightings in a positive way (rather than accumulating 'thumbs up' on Facebook posts for sheer kudos). I could go on but won't, birdwatching is of course for everyone and everyone is absolutely entitled to pursue it and utilise all technology fully in any way they desire and good for them too but its not for me, not all of it anyway  

 

The death of birding as we know it is almost complete...

 

I used to look at birdguides daily - 5 counties at least 2 times per day but now I barely use it.  It is such hard work doing what I wanted to do on it ie seeing what was around in nearby areas and the all important East Yorkshire.  I very rarely went to any twitches because of it but it was informative and fun to read.  I have never paid to use it because for me it was just something to read quickly when having a few moments free.  I have thought about paying for it but would I be going to any scarcities, rarities which turned up at the drop of a hat, probably not! 

It is just so much hard work using it for what I wanted that I have almost given upon it.  Maybe I should thank them for the changes at least I can save a few minutes a day of my life now.      

I guess it really doesn't matter whether you get information to help your ID from a paper book or the screen of your favourite device. What matters is that the info is accurate and accessible.

Stuff on t'interweb can be updated regularly (a big plus) but books go through a rigorous editing procedure before publication whereas any fool can publish any old rubbish online.

I think we often forget how we learned what we do know. It will rarely be just one source (book, video, sound recording, tip from a fellow birder...) but a distillation of some or all of these. One aspect of learning is knowing which source to trust.

No dig at any current GM birder intended! I was fast-forwarding to a point in the future where things will have changed. Clearly there is still a big market for bird literature now, but it is already more the preserve of specialist publishers and imprints from what I can see.

I guess one thing that is better about the classic approach is that you aren't fussing about with a camera or phone when you are watching a bird do something special. I would personally always prefer to watch the bird then consult the book when the view is over, rather than having to get a shot or face not being able to ID the bird at all.

Hi,

Interesting questions here about 'the best' way to do your birding. What we all need to be aware of is that high proportions of the next generations of birders will not be used to using books in general and will be far more demanding about what technology should be doing for them. This kind of app would still facilitate people learning how to ID birds as they would see the same suggestions being made and eventually recognize the bird themselves. I was looking through the ID forum on Birdforum the other day, and somebody sent in a picture of a Coot. This beggars belief on the one hand, but if that is how you expect to be taught then why would you use a book? As it stands you can submit your photo online and get your answer, and it's free. Why pay for a Field Guide? Why run the risk of being wrong when all these experts will give you the correct answer.

I think we need to be prepared for a world where publishers are less and less inclined to print books for the declining numbers of old-fashioned people that read them. Look at how many kids are using tablets and not books for general amusement. Birding will need to embrace the technology to avoid those kids thinking it is an activity that belongs to history. In a few years the idea that you can't just click the image and google the answer will appear to be pretty ridiculous or at least unsatisfactory to anyone under 30.

I think it's a shame, because personally I love that moment where you see the note in Collins and realise what you just saw in front of your eyes means it was a Marsh Harrier and not a Black Kite, to take an example from just a few days ago.

I've had a look at the merlin app posted below, it certainly does show how technology is constantly changing our lives as we rely on it more and more. Instead of checking boxes and keying in details- now all you need is a picture and hey presto, a list of likely suspects automatically.
Personally im not going to download this, though it will no doubt will prove essential to others in their needs or circumstances, I feel this app will remove the skill needed to learn to identify certain birds, or as one comment I read for the app, it will take the fun out of identifying the birds.

I remember years ago the challenge I had in going through the books to work out what bird I saw, making notes and checking references. This enabled me to learn the skill of checking the extra details and helps to remember for next time and I believe this is why I've come to notice even tiny variations in plumage because I remember something I learnt from last time. This in turn has helped me understand quickly when I needed to be sure how to identify very easily confusing species such as the Yellow legged gull some years ago now.

So apps like this I will always discourage others from using and to stick to what I feel is the best way to get the most out of birding - pen, paper, books and pictures. Whether this is from on the spot identification needs or from photos taken by the observer to check later.

Ta!

Have used the RBA app for quite sometime excellent service and can be tailored to suit birders needs.

Keep Birding 

 

Tim Wilcox wrote:

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 Quite. The weird multiplication of pins when you click on one is bizarre. Yesterday they all came up in an irrelevant circular formation! Google Maps has always been a vile interface. THe old Birdmap with it's differently sized squares was their invention and a damn fine one that worked perfectly. Don't bother trying to find your 'nearby birds' settings as they've decided nobody wants or needs them and they have been dumped. I don't subscribe to Birdguides to see people's photos better - bloody things are everywhere anyway

-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Wednesday 26th of July 2017 08:37:31 PM

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 The pins come up in a neat circle when you are not zoomed in far enough and there are pins hidden underneath other pins. Having them separate in a circle makes it easier to select each one. It's how Google maps works, and is a good way of doing it. If you zoom further into the map, they split properly and go back to the correct location. Certainly an improvement on the old map on which it was almost impossible to select a "square" when there were several at the same location.

I've still got birds nearby on my new version.

Yes, it is different from how it was before, and will take a bit of getting used to, but it does seem like a vast improvement on the old app. 

 

 

Rob Creek wrote:

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I was discussing this with Simon Gough and Chris Chandler on Sunday...I'm not keen on the new Birdguides at all, I may get used to it in time, but for now, I'm not!
I subscribe to the emails and the iPhone app, and was always browsing both the photos and the UK counties page where you just clicked the county you wanted ONCE and the most recent sightings came up, but since it's all changed I've only read the emails and hardly gone on the site.
My favourite page, the counties page, is no more. The map doesn't do it for me, there's around 4 or 5 coloured flags come up per bird, the White-rumped Sandpiper had 4 flags the other day, 1 of them just off Spurn Point, surely nobody saw it out in the sea!
Also when you clicked on a bird sighting on the app, it took you to that sighting with a larger image of the bird, now it just gives you a birdguides logo.
So in my opinion, for what it's worth, Birdguides was a fantastic app with simple but effective means of getting the information you needed for your birding, "tailored" if you like. Now, it isn't. Although it may have a fresh new look, it has lost its ease of use that many birders were used to and that ease of use probably brought lots of birders on-board, and ensured they were happy with their subscription and got their money's worth. No point looking good if you're not providing the service people want.
Obviously I'll give it time, so quite literally time will tell.

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Quite. The weird multiplication of pins when you click on one is bizarre. Yesterday they all came up in an irrelevant circular formation! Google Maps has always been a vile interface. THe old Birdmap with it's differently sized squares was their invention and a damn fine one that worked perfectly. Don't bother trying to find your 'nearby birds' settings as they've decided nobody wants or needs them and they have been dumped. I don't subscribe to Birdguides to see people's photos better - bloody things are everywhere anyway

-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Wednesday 26th of July 2017 08:37:31 PM

The 'improved' Birdguides is anything but. It's beyond hideous and the previously clear Birdmap is now a grotesque jumble of vile pins on a Google Maps interface. It just doesn't work on the phone at all. Touch the wretched thing and you are suddenly in Algeria.

 

I find the site so cluttered and busy now.  What was a simple and workable format has become something I do not look forward to visiting.  I faved nearby areas on my mobile so if I typed in "Gre.." Greater Manchester page would be up and I could s last 10 reports with ease.  I am not a regular twitcher but it was nice to be able to read what was around so cleanly and easily.  The colour, layout, background, style - very time consuming!     

Thanks Richard for heads up with regards to "All birds UK" just a heads up in return the usual price for this is £12.99. But currently is on offer for £0.99 so a bargain is to be had. Be aware tho, its a 1/5 gig download so make sure you've all enough space on your phone before downloading it

Not an app ,but still maybe of interest. Available on Google playstore eBook ,Gulls of Europe, Asia and North America (helms)
Anyone who has the hard version knows it's not practical to drag the paper version around with you, its to big and to heavy.

Currently available as a eBook, this is now available for £32.59 as a download. Bargain!

The Bird Info twitter service is great and you only need a bit of signal to be able to download the news. You also get access to the website. For me its the next best thing to a pager. Theres also a free twitter feed called rare bird network that you can tweet your news to, and you can search geographically using the hashtags.

I'm enquiring about if there are any recommended and reliable rare bird apps where one can either submit a scarce or rare bird out in the field or find any in any particular area of the UK besides birdguides, if anyone can advise please.. Many thanks.

-- Edited by Richard Thew on Thursday 10th of March 2016 02:22:26 PM