Some "facts" (More than 75 percent decline over 27 years in total flying insect biomass in protected areas) that back up our observations discussed below on decreasing insect numbers;
Mr Risley, excellent reply, and I am beginning to see a much bigger swing to the NO side of this discussion, I think you have raised some extremely valid points there, and yes some species have declined but we have gained others, Buzzards been to top one for me, and in Hindsight I think Mr Hilton would have been impressed if ;-( I had pressed my Birdtrack app on my patch this year, as it was without a doubt the best year ever for Columba palumbus ,with it been written in my notebook as the most common bird and best breeder in my patch.
That said I agree entirely on your comments regarding the way modern birders conduct themselves , waiting for the ping of the pager or the ting of a text before going out to twitch sorry! I meant to say before going out birding. So yes I feel we need to look at the Facts and Figures supplied by the excellent BTO reports and the County report and enjoy our birding by contributing in a proper manner. I certainly need to change my ways .
Keep Birding
ps Really The GM 200 club elite ... when the Haigh 110 Club has only one member...I see ,well Mr Risley I take great delight in bestowing on you a Honorary Membership to the said elite club , and hope you enjoy it , that said as a pirate birders that goes into other peoples patches to steal ticks I may spend some time with the lord and lady of Haigh Hall next year ....
We had a similar discussion on here about three years back titled tipping point if I recall, On my few patches which are mainly mixed woodland, wooded river valleys and surrounding farmland thankfully over the forty years plus I have been watching them most species have remained fairly stable, we have lost a few species, namely Lesser spotted woodpecker and more recently Green woodpecker, but have gained Buzzard Sparrowhawk Raven Nuthatch Kingfisher and Dipper.
some of the new species created problems for existing species, when Sparrowhawks returned in the late seventies they picked off easy prey in the form of Sparrows Starlings and Song Thrushes, birds that had flourished for at least 20 generations without knowing their natural predators, the ability to avoid predation from this species had probably long been bred out of these birds, Song thrushes have adapted, they keep in deep cover nowadays, the only time I see them these days are when they are singing in spring and the number of singing males often surprises me.
When Buzzards arrived about six years ago our local Kestrels disappeared or at least I thought they had, Buzzards will rob Kestrel so the birds changed their hunting tactics, they are still there and still producing young they are just more secretive, the same has applied to my Sparrowhawks, all 3 local pairs produced young this year, an immature male at one of the poorer nest sites might indicate not enough adult males made it through the winter but that is just guesswork, the young male might have been extremely confident.
Two weeks ago I counted 60 plus house sparrows dust bathing at a site fairly close to one of the pairs of nesting Sparrowhawks, this is the most Ive seen at this site
Personally I think the quality of birdwatcher has changed, people look on the internet to see if anything interesting has been seen then go and look for that, birders nowadays go out expecting to see something interesting, the chance to get a new tick outshines the chance of watching your local birds. I blame the GM 200 club! As the founder and only member of the Haigh CP 110 club we discussed this group at a recent meeting and the feeling was this group was elitist
Decline? In some species obviously, with the increase of predators it was inevitable, but why should nuthatches increase while Lesser spotted woodpeckers decrease, why should goldfinches and Chaffinches increase while Linnets and greenfinches decrease? Oh and we also have Peregrines in our cities and town centres, Egrets on our wetlands, Cettis Warblers ect ect
Mr Myerscough , what can I say, I doff my cap to your most eloquent reply, and I am humbled by your comments. I remember with great pride the small time we spent in your local patch looking for Redstarts, it was to short and I regret not spending more time birding with you, the county lost a great birder, when you moved ,you are missed.
The points you raise are valid true and based on knowledge fact and carefully considered principles, with evidence to back it up, from an experienced birder, I feel a tad uncomfortable in even starting this thread, which as you say was only meant to be though provoking! and yes with a tad sprinkling of my strange sense of humour.
The two sites mentioned would not be recognised by Mr Eric Hardy who's informationI gleaned from his excellent book The Bird Lover's weekend book, as other parts of the county have changed as well.
At least it has made me think about my role and what useful contribution I can make, and hopefully perhaps others as well. It is always a good idea to adapt and move forward, things will have changed , its the way of the world, In this past year i have seen mores Buzzards Ravens and Ringed necked parakeets than before, equally I may have chosen a particular barren area to have as a patch, so I will move onto pastures new and perhaps prove the decline is a No, with detailed records and facts.
Thank you for your contribution.
PS, I have made you a Honorary life member of the said club and the sherry will flow tonight
-- Edited by Paul Heaton on Thursday 7th of September 2017 06:23:19 PM
-- Edited by Paul Heaton on Thursday 7th of September 2017 06:23:58 PM
Cheers Craig, i think I have grasped the Birdtrack app so will make Mr Hilton a happy man as for Mr McKerchar need to do more work there.
Finally from me, Have things changed ...... some bird news from 1946
Altrincham sewage works Ruff, Greenshank, Green Sandpiper, Curlew Sandpiper, Black tailed Godwits, Black Tern, Turnstone, its visitors included Ringed Plover, Spotted Redshank ,Red necked Phalarope, Pectoral Sandpiper ,Little Stint ,Sanderling ,Whimbrel ,Grey Plover, Knot ,Wood Sandpiper,, and Redshank and Dunlin most months...
Worsley Sewage works Botany bay. Short eared Owl, Woodcock ,Curlew ,Long Eared Owl, Nightjar, Tree Creeper, Little Owl, Tree Sparrow ,Turtle dove, Hen Harrier, and Black Winged Stilt.
See things are just the same ...hahaha
Keep (dreaming ) Birding
Hi Paul,
Do these two sites have exactly the same habitat nowadays, as they did back in 1946? I suspect therein lies part of the reason why the bird assemblages at such sites will have changed. As you well know, if we don't give species a reason and an attraction to stop, then they won't!
I don't live in Greater Manchester anymore but when I did, one of my local patches was Kingsway Business Park in Rochdale. A temporary site evolving from farmland to an industrial estate in the east of the county. Doesn't sound very appealing does it? On part of the larger site; a fairly smallish rectangular piece of land, where the site had been prepared for future building work and then left, developed by chance almost as a shallow scrape if you like, with varying water levels, attracted at least 21 species of wader in the space of a few years this century. Including quite a few of the species you mention above; some of which bred in decent numbers. Not to mention the wide range of wildfowl and other species it attracted too. Who would have expected that on a temporary site in the borough of Rochdale? All quite by chance and without any effort to manage it, it just makes you think what could be achieved? Yes, some species are declining but give them some decent suitable habitat and they will drop in!
I have always been uneasy with the idea that we are going through some birding dark age in the county. When was this real or supposed golden age of Manchester birding? Can anyone tell me? I have always preferred to take on board facts and figures over anecdotal evidence. If a birder has say for example been carefully recording the number of territories of breeding Corn Buntings and Yellowhammers at a site for decades and suggests numbers are declining, then this should carry far more weight than someone who suggests the same, based on their anecdotal evidence. Yes, they may draw the same conclusions but one has facts and figures at their disposal to help try and prove their argument, the other does not.
This in my opinion is why record keeping and the submitting of records locally and nationally is so important and the data collected by the BTO through their various surveys has to be the basis of forming opinions on the well-being or otherwise of all species on a local and national scale. Yes, there will be minor imperfections in survey techniques and consequently in the data. After all estimates of population numbers and trends are just as they suggest, estimates. I'm very glad to read that you have become a convert to record submission (better late than never!) and trust that you find BirdTrack to your liking. It is better and more flexible than it may initially appear. It just takes a bit of effort to learn the wrinkles of the system.
Decline, yes or no? Nick Hilton has given a good summary of the most recent BTO data. If I can add another bit of info into the mix. Volunteer birders in the county conducted breeding birds' atlas surveys in GM between 1979-1983 and then again in 2008-2011. Between these two survey periods 71 species had increased their ranges (distribution) by 2008-11; 41 of these by 50% or more. 41 species saw there ranges contract; 17 of these by 50% or more. The number of new breeding colonists outnumbered the species lost as breeding birds by a ratio of around 5 to 1. The recording areas for both periods were not exactly the same but more than close enough to produce meaningful figures. Changes in range isn't always entirely linked to population changes but there is a pretty good correlation. Yes, we all know things could be a lot better, but does human nature always focus on the negatives and many just take for granted and overlook the positives?
Finally! To one of your earlier points. Is it just another one of those birding urban myths that less young people are involved in our wonderful hobby nowadays, than used to be in that 'golden age of birding'? There's definitely a recurring theme developing here! Again, I remain to be convinced. Perhaps, maybe, possibly, in the days when egg-collecting was considered acceptable and pursued by young lads and lasses. But since that became taboo, then I need convincing that our hobby is solely in the hands of old fogies such as myself. Plus, is there then the unwritten suggestion that the hobby is not safe in those with wrinkly hands!!! So if people come to the hobby in larger numbers and with greater energy in later life, after they have been through their education, jobs, families, is that really a problem? I don't think so, providing our hobby is still attracting people of whatever age, in good numbers.
I always enjoy reading you posts Paul; they are interesting, thought-provoking and often wryly funny. I always enjoy reading about your GM200 Club, although it's highly unlikely I'll ever gain entry as a member. Unless you are looking for waiting staff, to serve over-priced dry sherries and dodgy flapjacks, to all the inebriated list-obsessive inmates therein!
I'm sure you and all other contributors to Ian's website and forum realise how lucky you have such a terrific resource, where such topics can be kicked around and debated (in a civil, adult manner of course!). I don't have the luxury of such an excellent resource living in North Wales. One of the many things I miss about living out of the county. The county has a lot going for it.
Best wishes,
Bill.
PS - Sorry but it's so long since I posted on Ian's forum, I've even forgotten how to add emoticons to soften and lighten up the tone of some of what I've written.
The question was 'Decline yes or no?' The answer is 'yes'. When thinking about the question, I recalled the many quotations I have read down the years as to why some species of butterfly became extinct in the U.K., I think large tortoiseshell was one of them, and not even all the evidence to hand could lead the experts to conclude that one single factor was involved. Basically, they were (and still are) saying 'we do not know for certain why it happened'. For me, that is a statement that should send a chill down the spine, and it is still being used. Does anyone really know why willow tits and marsh tits have declined, as well as other woodland species, when the woods remain largely unchanged? There are theories, but nothing yet that really stands up to close scrutiny. There is something out there though (sorry to sound a bit b-movie sci-fi) that we have, as yet, not been able to pinpoint: something in the air? Could it be the mythical 'tipping point' has come and gone, and the downward spiral has begun? On a less doom-laden note, a spokesman for the National Trust gave a more science-based statement a day or two ago relating to the Summer we have just 'enjoyed' (read 'suffered') when, in condemning it as another poor one, he said 'we have not had a good Summer since 2006'. Having a long, warm (not hot), dryish summer would certainly do for starters in promoting insect numbers and bird survival. Glad I'm the age I am, and not just starting out in our hobby. Fact is, I wouldn't bother.
Just throwing it out there but maybe its the sites that are in decline too- a lot of places that used to be great are now all over grown and neglected and not as attractive to birds.
Rumworth Lodge has been subject to some modern farming methods, over the last 12 months. Several hundred metres of well established hedgerows have been grubbed out on the south, and east fields. These fields have been planted with Italian Rye grass, a crop that is harvested every 6 weeks or so, as it grows like fury. Very few birds appear happy in it and they have little chance of breeding with the regular harvesting. As a further preparation for this crop, a reed bed, that I believe was SBI listed, has disappeared under the plough. This reed bed had been used by Sedge Warblers and Reed Buntings on an annual basis. A further area of wet ground with Juncus has gone under the plough. This ground was used by Common Snipe, and in the past Jack Snipe. Bolton Council have made the farmer replant one hedge row, but it will take years to get establish. This year the once abundant Grey Partridge appear to have disappeared and they often used these hedges. On the lodge itself I have not recorded any of the usual Great Crested Grebe family's and a single Tufted Duck brood was gradually finished off. Mink have been recorded and may have something to do with this.
-- Edited by keith mills on Wednesday 6th of September 2017 07:24:47 PM
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Rumworth List 2019, species to date: 63 Latest: Sand Martin, Reed Bunting, Redshank, Pink-footed Goose, Curlew.
Just throwing it out there but maybe its the sites that are in decline too- a lot of places that used to be great are now all over grown and neglected and not as attractive to birds.
Cheers Craig, i think I have grasped the Birdtrack app so will make Mr Hilton a happy man as for Mr McKerchar need to do more work there.
Finally from me, Have things changed ...... some bird news from 1946
Altrincham sewage works Ruff, Greenshank, Green Sandpiper, Curlew Sandpiper, Black tailed Godwits, Black Tern, Turnstone, its visitors included Ringed Plover, Spotted Redshank ,Red necked Phalarope, Pectoral Sandpiper ,Little Stint ,Sanderling ,Whimbrel ,Grey Plover, Knot ,Wood Sandpiper,, and Redshank and Dunlin most months...
Worsley Sewage works Botany bay. Short eared Owl, Woodcock ,Curlew ,Long Eared Owl, Nightjar, Tree Creeper, Little Owl, Tree Sparrow ,Turtle dove, Hen Harrier, and Black Winged Stilt.
On the recording frontI know exactly what you mean Paul. I have always recorded my sightings - but not always submitted them but do now using Rodis or the spreadsheet method. I must admit I cannot get on with Birdtrack at all. Notebook and pen for me always - can't be doing with typing everything into my phone! I will be starting using Mapmate again soon - I used to use it for recording Moths but stopped a couple of years ago. I did the reverse to you and went from Windows to Mac which meant mapmate was a no no. I now have both Mac and Windows PC so will get back on it.
Have you considered BirdJournal? Theres a free version and a paid version. The free one is pretty good and you can export your data straight into Birdtrack, or so I believe. I must admit I tend to use it just to record trips out and my yearlist rather than everyday sightings.
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Tuesday 5th of September 2017 07:13:40 PM
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No one on their death bed ever said they wished they'd spent more time at work. http://bitsnbirds.blogspot.co.uk
Rose tinted spectacles , peaks and troughs, modern technology, a bad summer,no-one recording, there appear to be lots of valid reason why the birding scene seems to have changed.
I read in great detail Nick Hiltons reply and perused all the links to some excellent BTO reports, and took the hints regarding the BTO recording APP Birdtrack, I spent an hour or so last night on you tube trying to come to terms with this, and I feel that where I have gone wrong, I have notebooks going back to January 1st 1977, full of day list and my sightings, as a birder in my teenage years, it was a dangerous hobby, if my mates knew I went out birding, i fear the outcome would be rather damaging to me and my equipment, so I kept it quite for years, in fact never met another birder, it was only in 1987 a decade later i came across Birdwatch Magazine and Birdline and realised others had the same interest as me, and I fear I went down the Twitching Path....and a dam fine path it was ! I had many an adventure and my list grew and grew, it was only when I stopped to reflect one day, when I achieved a considerable list what I was doing, was I enjoying my birding was a contributing in any way.?
I thought submitting records was for the hard core patch workers, I was a wandering birder, a twitcher I never had a patch, had a few local haunts but never thought of then as patches, BTO guys were the serious nutters for records, and how I love there reports and the county bird reports for all areas, I would drool over birds I had missed, birding was via the pager now chasing other birders sighting, wondering why they were so lucky. I twitched the 90,s another decade of birding.( i dont regret any of it )
The Year 2000 came time to change perhaps I should get a computer, and start to record... I went down the Apple Mac path.... it appears nothing is compatible , I went on Rodis lessons and got a windows computer for Mapmate, bloody hard stuff that, I am happy to fill a notebook just find it hard to transfer to the screen.
I sat last night reading Birds in Greater Manchester County Report 2011, what a excellent report, Ian Mckerchar's review of the year is without doubt outstanding, I compared it with the first 1959 bird report, ( I am a geek and I have them all ) we have moved on so much and perhaps the thought of a decline in birds insects is because we have had a quite year, it has renewed my spirits and my new path has be to submitting records, so the county bird reporter can continue to produce excellent reports that inspire us to go out and find birds.
Its been an interesting thread this and opened up some new ideas for me, I hope it will renew birders to go out find stuff and report it, I also hope the recording team can develop an easy app so I can just bird click and report.
I was thinking very similar thoughts only the other day Paul. I have decided, after many years, to give up on my local patch and go for a change, simply because over the last few years I have seen a decline in numbers to the extent where this year I had been wandering around seeing very little on most visits. Even the number of territories of common breeders seemed to be well down. I had noticed, as John mentions a real lack of invertebrate life over much of the site, so much so I was actually inspired to 'tweet' a few weeks ago when, for once, the air was filled with the noise of grasshoppers and buzzing things. It happened maybe twice all summer. I can't attribute this to anything on the site - no herbicides used, grass areas left uncut except verges, lots of native plants/trees/wildflowers. Its a shame as previous years have seen some good numbers of a range of birds and it always felt like something good would turn up, either in one of the hedges or in the flocks of pipits and finches that used to come into the adjacent fields. This year I would have been happy with a few Greenfinches!
I was out around an agricultural area the other day and as I was passing a largish muck heap, it dawned on me that in very similar habitat over on the east coast last year I was looking at a similar muck heap that was hosting numerous chaffinches, yellowhammers, robins, redstarts, reed buntings, thrushes of three or four species etc etc. Now, I admit that was in early October in the middle of migration, but many of the birds there would have been resident. The muck heap I was looking at last week had zero birds anywhere near it. Even when I have been over to the east coast in spring there seems to be many many more farmland birds knocking about in the hedges and field margins.
I do think that wetland areas seem to be more productive at the moment, and some of the more mature woodlands still seem to be OK, but I have noticed a definite decline in areas surrounded by (particularly) arable farming.
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No one on their death bed ever said they wished they'd spent more time at work. http://bitsnbirds.blogspot.co.uk
A couple of recent discussion threads have stated that less recording is occurring now than in previous years. Nick's statistic below about BBS squares surveyed suggests the complete opposite. Is it possible that the County Recorder system [i.e. the traditional idea of 'recording'] is being neglected in lieu of people using 'citizen science' platforms like eBird, Birdtrack, etc? Maybe the formal surveys are being conducted more widely but 'casual records' are declining. Is there any light that anyone with evidence can shed on whether there is less net data, or more?
On the point about young birders and recording, I'd be surprised if most of the NGB types I've met weren't keeping detailed records, they're normally pretty geeky, in a nice way. I think the challenge is more likely to be the older people that are new to the hobby, possibly brandishing SLRs and not really thinking beyond the next tick or decent shot. Getting young people into birding in the first place of course, is a separate and difficult challenge.
Mr Nick Hilton,,,,ouch... I accept the smack around the head for the detailed records and lack of submission, its a part of my birding that I am ashamed of...I have tried mapmate rodis just seem to be crap at it, happy to have help and guidance off anyone.
And your quite right its not all doom and gloom, I have detailed records of rises in Buzzard, Ravens, Jays, and others , there are ups and downs.
One chain of thought as well is the lack of young birders out and about reporting .
Anywho.. thank you gentlemen for your thoughts and input,
Keep Birding.
ps Nick have submitted a reply to your other issue.
Presumably those detailed records you take (and submit) are the basis of your statement!
Unfortunately the data from the Breeding Bird Survey (in partnership with the BTO, JNCC & RSPB) generally backs up your comments. The 2016 report was issued in the last couple of weeks and, for many species, doesn't make great reading.
Just taking the two species John and Dave were discussing;
Meadow Pipit In the UK between 1995 and 2016 the average number of survey squares the species was recorded in has declined by 7% (only by 1% in the North West region)
Skylark In the UK between 1995 and 2016 the average number of survey squares the species was recorded in has declined by 22% (and also by 22% specifically in the North West region)
To give some context, UK wide in 1995 a total of 1,771 1km surveys squares were surveyed and in 2016 3,837.
The report provides a brief summary for the North West (Cheshire, Cumbria, Lancashire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside); "Fifty-seven trends calculated, 31 were significant: 21 increases and 10 declines. Nuthatch increased by 376% and Swifts declined by 57%. Of the regional trends produced for Sparrowhawk, the decline has been greatest in the North West"
It's not all bad news but there are some species significantly hit. The decline of the Sparrowhawk in the NW could, I assume, be linked to a fall generally in small bird numbers.
For those interested the below links will provide greater detail; https://www.bto.org/volunteer-surveys/bbs/latest-results/population-trends https://www.bto.org/volunteer-surveys/bbs/latest-results/trend-graphs
For what its worth, and not based on any hard data (although I very rarely have to wipe clean the bonnet/grill of my car these days!), I also believe there has been a huge reduction in insect life and small bird numbers on my local patches at Carrington Moss and Davyhulme NR.
Cheers Nick
(Paul, I need your advice on another issue so I've PM'd you)
I work at Risley, very close to Silver Lane. I'm always the first person in every morning so I open the shutters covering the door. Ten years ago I would be showered every morning with moths, earwigs, etc. tumbling from the shutters. The earwigs disappeared some years ago but the moths have rapidly declined year on year too. This year however has been appalling, some days there hasn't been a single moth present. Entirely unscientific I know, but - to me at least - a worrying indication of our declining insect population.
The frequency of pesticides I see sprayed on places like Barrow Lane these days is scary, the amount of drift that must surely take place can only have a negative effect on insect populations.
My Patches are definitely in decline ,Silver Lane pools, for the amount of habitat its virtually bereft of small songbirds, I think the bird population is crashing at a vast rate ,and pretty much not a lot you can do about it, if the habitats there and no disturbance and there's still nothing in a 2 mile square and 4 hour mooch, there little that can be done. I think the whole food chains is crashing,less bees ,less Butterfly's and insects ,less micro insect etc due possibly to pesticides and farming methods, but even away from farmlands the same issue is present, even on areas like Risley Moss or even Pennington Flash the numbers of small insects, Bees and Butterflies has dropped dramatically in the last 20 years the same as the commoner birds ,and even at Pennington ,you can walk sometimes from the car park round the whole south side without seeing a single songbird , where once they were in abundance .
Dave Wilson long time Pennington birder and author of the birds of Pennington Flash asked me the same on Friday night at the LOS meeting ,to Quote Dave this is what he said in a post of mine on my facebook.
"The decline in insect life in the grassy places I visit has been getting more noticeable year by year. Parts of Bickershaw and Gadbury are now birdless with hardly any tiny grass moths and very few butterflies. Meadow Pipit numbers seem to have crashed everywhere and Skylarks seem to be close to abandoning some once-favourite haunts, among them Atherton South. It's a desperately worrying situation which can't be explained away by blaming the careless use of agricultural chemicals for it's occurring well away from intensively farmed places. We appear to be suffering from a wider unexplained malaise and it's very worrying!"
I think and cannot be sure ,but less and less people send records in or keep bird records these days ,so most will not notice the decline like a patcher like me would, so this problem is probably in the background ,but I am hearing whisperings from a lot of long time birders saying the same and its not looking back with rose tinted spectacles. :(
There has been much talk on the lack of insects and habitat damage etc, and many birders reporting lack of common birds on there patches, I have spent most of this year trying to stay local to my home area and bird just in and around where I live, the results are I am afraid to say disappointing, lots and lots of wood pigeon , a noticeable decline in Green finch and warblers numbers, and days and days or only seeing a ten or twelve species, in a full morning birding.
A took a field trip out to Elton res the other week, the place was full of birds, so maybe its just one or two locations.
Lets hope autumn brings a couple of good treat with it.
but do now using Rodis or the spreadsheet method. I must admit I cannot get on with Birdtrack at all. Notebook and pen for me always - can't be doing with typing everything into my phone! I will be starting using Mapmate again soon - I used to use it for recording Moths but stopped a couple of years ago. I did the reverse to you and went from Windows to Mac which meant mapmate was a no no. I now have both Mac and Windows PC so will get back on it.