Dave Cropper wrote:

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Hi John

Just an update for you. Lesser Redpoll was given species status by IOC in quarterly update 7.3.  The lump of Mealy (or Common   Redpoll as they prefer) was rejected at this stage pending further research and consensus so they upgraded Lesser Redpoll to match Arctic Redpoll species status due to a similar amount of differentiation and the fact that the BOU amongst others recognised it as a full species. As I use the IOC list for my purposes I was happy to get the tick back! ( although we are still set to lose Hudsonian Whimbrel!)

Hope that clears that up. 

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Thank you for that clarification Dave,

I have just looked at IOC 7.3 and it is dated 31 July 2017 so post dates both Pete's and my references. So, we keep all 3 Redpolls (for the moment). I too lose Hudsonian Whimbrel but gain a Bean Goose .

Cheers John

Confusing indeed Pete,

The IOC proposal and your Birdguides link are both dated Jan 2017 (although the original IOC paper was from Apr 2015, updated Jan 2017). I guess we wait till BOU publish the new list then all will (or may) become clear.

Cheers John.

Hi John, Im sure I read somewhere that they were now leaving the redpoll complex as is - but that might have been a while ago and could well have changed.

There are 9 accepted records in the county, all in the 1996 influx.

For anyone with an interest in listing I have just been looking at the IOCs latest Proposed Splits/Lumps. As far as I can make out Mealy and Arctic Redpolls are the two species proposed to be lumped. But Lesser Redpoll may well follow pending future studies.

If I have this right then, when the BOU adopt IOC as the basis for the British List in January 2018, I lose one from my British List but GM lists remain unaffected (assuming the proposal is approved of course). Has Arctic Redpoll been recorded in GM?

I havent read the full paper in detail but below is the recommendation.

Cheers, John


Lump Acanthis flammea and Acanthis hornemanni into a single species

Recommendation:
"Based on the genetic and genomic data, the phenotypic data, and Salomonsens (1950) conclusions regarding flammea rostrata and nominate hornemanni, we believe that the burden of proof has shifted to those who would treat flammea and hornemanni as separate species, and therefore recommend lumping A. flammea and A. hornemanni into a single species, A. flammea. Despite the genetic and genomic data, however, we recommend treating A. cabaret as a separate species, pending future studies of assortative mating and any reconsideration of this species by local authorities.

Submitted by: Nicholas A. Mason and Scott A. Taylor, Cornell University
Date of proposal: 23 April 2015, revised 12 Jan. 2017

17 pages of great pics of Hornemann's in the current Birding World vol.25, no.12

Tim Wilcox wrote:

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So Pete, you got your one 'true' Arctic Redpoll for when the rest get turfed back into a single species. But, er, didn't you go down the day after the failed Firecrest watch in Alex Park 2 weeks ago?

-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Saturday 22nd of December 2012 08:59:12 PM

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Well I tried, though the first attempt was aborted after managing only 120 miles in 4 hours due to various factors, blah blah blah, lets just say I was glad to get back home in one piece. I almost sacked the idea of trying again completely, though I'm glad I did try again (albeit in a spontaneous moment of twitching madness).

Who knows if earlier Arctic Redpoll records will be reviewed, eg the December 1988 Carnoustie bird which wasn't assigned to race in BB ?. Who knows if BOU will adopt the IOC redpoll lumping approach ?. What I did know that there was a still a hornemann's still showing well in Suffolk and if the lumping goes ahead then this could turn out to be another Shetland speciality. It's an insurence policy.

I've managed to catch up with the likes of Yellow-breasted Bunting and Pechora Pipit on the mainland over the years but Lanceolated Warbler and Pallas's Grasshopper Warbler still elude me in the UK and you could almost add Siberian Rubythroat to that list. You have to weigh up the pro's and con's at a personel level. I've seen several of the latter three in South and South-east Asia and at the cost of a Shetland twitch I could be in Thailand watching all three and more. I doubt I'll ever be birding in Greenland or Arctic Canada watching hornmanni on their own turf (permafrost ?) as I prefer warmer climates


-- Edited by Pete Hines on Sunday 23rd of December 2012 04:30:04 AM

-- Edited by Pete Hines on Sunday 23rd of December 2012 04:35:14 AM

super footage, great looking bird, very pale and clean looking, to me noticably very nice in the flanks area with hardly any streaking, also around the face area too, superb bird, cheers

Cheers for the list Jason.

I was on the Outer Hebrides a few years ago and the experienced guides suggested not even attempting to identify different subspecies when we found a flock of Redpolls.

Only 1 really Arctic Redpoll that being Hornemann's. Great things redpolls and totally baffling, not a year passes without a discussion on the taxonomic complexities of the species.

Just to confuse you below is the redpoll list:

Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll - hornemanni
Coues's Arctic Redpoll - exilipes
Greenland Redpoll - rostrata
Icelandic Redpoll - islandica
Common/Mealy Redpoll - flammea
Lesser Redpoll - cabaret

Cheers
Jason

So is Hornemanns the one that I've heard reffered to as Greenland Arctic? Or is that the Exilipes - Sorry - havent had time to read the article in Ians link in full yet!

Also, I'm curious as to what the likely taxonomy was of the Pennington Flash Arctic Redpoll in 1995/6? Presumably it would have been one of the scandinavian race? Not that anyone probably considered the possibillity of it being one race or another back then....or did they? Again to me it was just C. Hornemanni.

I hate taxonomy. Whatever happened to Darwins theory of speciation???

Cheers Ian